Where to Be a Woman (Writing: Journals, Books and Academics)

Keeping a journal? Writing books or an academic paper? Maybe it’s good for you. Scaachi Koul and Sophia Smith Galer both write and feel it contributes to their wellbeing and is therapeutic. They hear from the United States and Serbia about getting published and women in STEM. So what are you waiting for? Pick up a pen or start tapping away on a keyboard and then let us know about it!

Guests: Chris Olsen, founder of Publish Her, and Nataša Simić, from the University of Belgrade’s Institute of Psychology.

Scaachi Koul (00:04)

Welcome to “Where to Be a Woman” from the BBC World Service and BBC Sounds, where we explore the best of women’s well-being around the world. I’m Scaachi Koul.

Sophia Smith Galer (00:15)

And I’m Sophia Smith Galer. We’re on a mission to find out the good news globally about where women are progressing and making strides towards a better quality of life.

Scaachi Koul (00:24)

So we’re pushing past the latest wellness fads to talk to some extraordinary women around the world about what true well-being really looks like.

Sophia Smith Galer (00:32)

Because if we want to actually build a better world for women, we have to be able to imagine it first.

We’ve been asking you to get in touch, and we really love hearing your thoughts about our podcast from all over the world. Kimya in Sweden has told us, “What a brilliant idea for a podcast! I thought an interesting topic to look into could be where women are most likely to get a neurodivergent diagnosis, such as ADHD or autism, since it’s a known fact that many women are overlooked and only receive their proper diagnosis much later in life than men.” Our neurodivergent producer, Millie, is also very interested in exploring this topic.

Scaachi Koul (01:12)

And an anonymous listener says, “I would really like to hear about the retirement gap or the difference in time dedicated to care between men and women.” Well, I’m also looking forward to retirement, so this is definitely something we should investigate.

So, in this episode, we’re talking about writing. Sophia, you and I know this gig very well. How did you become a writer?

Sophia Smith Galer (01:38)

I’d always very secretly wanted to write a book one day, ever since I was at school. I was the nerd who’d submit stuff into writing competitions. And when I eventually came to doing my first book, it was simple, really. It was the idea that, “Oh my goodness, why doesn’t this book already exist? So, I’m gonna do it.” So, that’s how I was drawn into it. How were you drawn in?

Scaachi Koul (02:03)

Oh, I just have no other transferable skills. It was really through a process of elimination. I was like, “I can’t do math. I’m not that pleasant. I don’t think I can use my face, so I better be clever.” But I also feel like writing really contributes to my well-being. Being able to express myself in that way is medicinal for me in a lot of ways, and I think for a lot of people, especially women, it’s helpful to feel like a grounded person in the world.

Sophia Smith Galer (02:30)

Yes, I definitely am a journal girlie. I love the idea of writing something that no one will ever read, including myself. It is the therapeutic act of writing, as you described, because so much of my other output is consumed and judged by loads of people.

Scaachi Koul (02:45)

Do you feel like there are enough women and girls who get into writing? Do you think they have avenues to get into writing?

Sophia Smith Galer (02:52)

The infuriating thing about writing is actually who reads that writing. If you are a man, you are far more likely to be read by men and women than if you’re a woman. Women are way more likely in the nonfiction space to be read by other women than by men. It’s really clear to see those biases play out because it’s men’s books that are repeatedly some of the most read.

Scaachi Koul (03:22)

Well, Sophia, that’s why my campaign “Stop Reading Men” has been so successful. I don’t read any men for any reason. I won’t even read a text from a man. He has to send it through a woman for me to read it. [Laughter]

Scaachi Koul (03:40)

Our first stop is in a country where women are surprisingly the dominant group among writers. Women account for more than half of the books published here. In a 2023 study by researcher Joel Waldfogel, he said that the average female author sells more books than her male counterpart. Ugh. And what a relief—I don’t have to travel far today. We’re going to the good old US of A, where I live alongside 1 million rats and pigeons in New York City. But here to tell us why the U.S. is such a good place to be a female writer is Chris Olsen, writer and founder of Publish Her, a publishing platform that supports women to write and navigate the publishing process.

Hi, Chris.

Chris Olsen (04:28)

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Scaachi Koul (04:30)

OK, Chris, I’d like for you to give us the good news about becoming a writer in the U.S. as a woman. You have 30 seconds, and your time starts now.

Chris Olsen (04:38)

Over the past 50 years, women’s authorship in the U.S. has grown three times faster than men’s. And the other good news is that tools for independently published authors are becoming more accessible, meaning women of color, women with disabilities, and women in the LGBTQ+ community, who are grossly underrepresented in traditional publishing, don’t need a literary agent or a big publishing house behind them to publish a book.

Scaachi Koul (04:56)

All right, your time’s up. How do you think writing impacts someone’s well-being? … Beyond people who do it professionally?

Chris Olsen (05:03)

[There are] a lot of studies around expressive writing. So, journaling and … writing to express yourself—it’s an effective tool for self-improvement. For example, writing in a journal can give you insight on how to express and control emotions. And then … you can use those insights to self-regulate, which can improve your well-being. But there are also studies that show expressive writing, so journaling, lowers your blood pressure and reduces stress and improves your mood.

But it’s not just a tool for self-expression. … It’s also a tool for social change. … Think about speeches that have been a catalyst for big social movement. … It’s also a means for preserving and understanding culture. And it connects us with one another. It helps us understand what it might be like to be in someone else’s shoes and, at the same time, lets us know we’re not alone. It’s great for us on an individual level, for those of us who write, but also for those of us who are reading and connecting to people’s stories.

Scaachi Koul (06:04)

Writing is a really solitary act, but I feel like being a writer gives me a lot of community. Do you think writing in any form gives women a better sense of community?

Chris Olsen (06:15)

Absolutely. I’m part of several writing groups in person and online, and I think it’s a wonderful way to connect with other people who might be on the same path [as] you … But also in the communities that I’m a part of … we provide information and resources and opportunity. Plus [the] ability to learn by listening to others or reading others’ work who are maybe more seasoned or who just have a different perspective. And … just being in community in general is so important.

Scaachi Koul (06:44)

What is the overall landscape for women who want to write in the U.S.? What does it look like? How would you describe it as a writer there?

Chris Olsen (06:52)

A specialized degree is not required to be a writer. And writers and authors compose a lot of different materials, so anything from novels to blog posts. Writers and authors often work from home or anywhere they have access to a computer. And so that allows for flexibility that many women need, especially women who are mothers and may … need to work from home or have that flexibility. And in the U.S., many writers are self-employed, so you can … take charge of your own career and income.

Scaachi Koul (07:26)

Can you tell me a little bit about Publish Her and the kind of work that you do there?

Chris Olsen (07:30)

We are an independent publisher, but we’re also an educator, so we’re dedicated to elevating women’s writing and stories. We are particularly passionate about amplifying the voices of women of color, women with disabilities, women in the LGBTQ+ community. These are groups that are underrepresented in publishing. So, our goal is really to make publishing accessible and exciting and collaborative for everyone. We provide education about the publishing industry, and we’re really working to destigmatize self-publishing, because it’s one of the ways that everyone can have a voice.

Scaachi Koul (08:07)

Speaking of self-publishing … the ability to self-publish has democratized the landscape for a lot of marginalized writers, women of color, … trans women, nonbinary people. What still needs to be done to encourage more people who want to write?

Chris Olsen (08:21)

I’m in a lot of in-person writing groups and online writing groups, and I can’t even give you a number as to how many times I’ve seen women write “I’m thinking about giving up. Traditional publishers aren’t interested in my story. I am tired of trying.” … It’s interesting to me, because it’s sort of like you’re putting everything into the hands of these gatekeepers, and there are tools now so that you don’t have to. So, my message is you don’t need to wait for someone to choose you or to deem your story important.

Scaachi Koul (08:52)

Since the ‘70s, there’s been a shift in publishing. … It used to be very male dominated. Now it’s actually quite a bit more female dominated. Why do you think that’s the case? And do you think that is bringing more female writers into the profession?

Chris Olsen (09:06)

Many women prefer to work with other women, which is what I see and hear all the time in my work. … Statistically, women read more than men. They represent about 80 percent of the population that reads. And the most profitable book genre is romance. More than 80 percent of romance books are written by women. Nearly 80 percent of traditionally published authors are women. … I think that has a lot to do with it.

Scaachi Koul (09:37)

Marlon James, who’s a Jamaican writer … said that a lot of writers of color have to pander to the gaze of white women in order to get published. … A lot of book editors are white women. What do you think needs to be done to further diversify publishing in that way?

Chris Olsen (09:51)

I think that’s true. Traditional publishing is about making money—it’s an industry, right? And so, if books written by white women for white women are what’s selling, then … that’s an industry issue. I know a lot of traditional publishers are working on this, but they really hold most of the power. So, I think it starts there, with publishers making a greater effort to amplify those voices and tell those stories.

Scaachi Koul (10:23)

OK, Chris, what’s one thing the rest of the world can learn from American women about being a writer?

Chris Olsen (10:30)

It can increase your well-being in a number of ways, and it can also be a really rewarding and viable career option for women.

Scaachi Koul (10:39)

All right, Chris, thank you so much for joining us.

Sophia Smith Galer (10:42)

Coming up, we’re heading to Europe—and I’ll give you some clues. This country is where the word “vampire” originates, and it makes the most expensive cheese. This dairy delight, called Pule, costs $576 for just a pound of cheese. See if you can guess where we’re going!

[Commercial break]

Sophia Smith Galer (11:51)

How did you do Scaachi?

Scaachi Koul (11:53)

I don’t know, but I would like to eat whatever you’re talking about.

Sophia Smith Galer (11:59)

You’re someone with expensive tastes, aren’t you, Scaachi? Because, I mean, a pound of cheese isn’t much. I essentially breathe and consume, like, 3 pounds of cheese in one go. … That’s a lot of money.

We are going to—drumroll—Serbia! Its capital, Belgrade, is one of the oldest cities in the world. Serbia is a popular filming location because of its beautiful natural and historic sites, and it’s often referred to as the Hollywood of the Balkans. But outside of just looking good, Serbia is also doing a good job of supporting women in academia.

One report, which looked at the number of academic papers published between 2017 and 2020, found that Serbia is one of the only countries in the world where more articles were published by women than men. And according to the Science Fund of the Republic of Serbia, during 2020, more female scientists were approved for funding and research than men. To tell us more, we have Nataša Simić, a senior research associate at the Institute of Psychology, Faculty of Philosophy, at the University of Belgrade.

Hello, Nataša.

Nataša Simić (13:06)

Hello. Nice to meet you.

Sophia Smith Galer (13:15)

So first up, I’m going to give you 30 seconds to give us the good news about writing in Serbia, and your time begins now.

Nataša Simić (13:26)

It’s mostly related to our socialist legacy. Since the ‘70s, women have been fully employed and equally valued in the workplaces. Women constitute approximately 55 percent of the scientific community, and over 50 percent of all projects supported by Serbian Science Fund are led by female scientists. With one-year-long maternity leave and affordable kindergarten services, we are able to balance our roles as dedicated mothers and scientists.

Sophia Smith Galer (13:55)

Wow, that’s cool. I’m so pleased we’re speaking to you because writing as a practice is so diverse, right? I can be—I can be a writer in my little journalism space; you, of course, are a writer in the academic space. I’d love to hear more about what your experience has been as someone who publishes work in Serbia, as a woman.

Nataša Simić (14:20)

I would say that it’s really nice to be a female scientist in Serbia and that we have many different opportunities. First of all, I would say that we have, as I said, a socialist legacy, which means that it’s quite usual that women are fully employed for decades now. And in academia, there is really a large percentage of women at both faculties … colleges and scientific institutes. I could say that there is some kind of solidarity among women, so we really try to support each other. And there are some policy measures and recent practices that really promote females.

Sophia Smith Galer (14:59)

Especially when we compare what’s happening in Serbia compared to other countries, where perhaps there aren’t as many women who are able to publish their work in … academic journals. Why is it important that we do have more women academics around the world publishing their work?

Nataša Simić (15:19)

It’s really important to have more women publishing their works because we offer different perspectives. We choose different topics because we see the world in a different way, so we can really contribute to the diversity of worldviews and discussions. So, it’s really important to get our voices heard.

In addition, I think it’s really important that we are role models to new generations, especially girls, and it’s really relevant for them to see us in the media, in public, to see our names in their books and in scientific journals—so they know it’s also possible for them.

Sophia Smith Galer (15:59)

And I understand this is across lots of different fields of study, is that right? So, it’s not necessarily that there are lots of women publishing their work but it’s only in social studies. … It seems to also be across STEM subjects, meaning science, technology, engineering, and math. Can you tell us a bit more about the diversity of academia?

Nataša Simić (16:24)

Of course, women predominate in social science and humanities. But in Serbia, [there are] also a lot of female scientists in STEM disciplines. For example, 30 percent of academics in STEM disciplines are women. When you compare scientific journals, those in the STEM disciplines and those in social science and humanities, there is equal number of these journals in Serbia, and knowing that women publish more, it means that they’re really represented in all these disciplines and that they really publish without any kind of discrimination. They’re important works.

Sophia Smith Galer (17:01)

What bearing do you think this all has on well-being—the well-being of women in academia, but equally women who are going to benefit from the brilliant scientists who are able to publish their work?

Nataša Simić (17:14)

So well-being, of course, is greater if we have more opportunities, if we have more alternatives. We have … more space for culturally and politically alternative ideas and more opportunities to explore different ideas. And when you have this kind of freedom, it’s really beneficial for your well-being. Being in a circle of really great scientists and female colleagues can really empower you, but also in how we actually try to influence policies and practice based on data that we get from our research.

Sophia Smith Galer (17:54)

As you said, research is better when you have more people in there bringing their experiences into the mix. Are there any groundbreaking research projects happening, or maybe have happened recently, that you think have the possibility of causing a huge impact in the future, that have been involving women academics?

Nataša Simić (18:16)

It’s a really difficult question, because I think that all big research projects and studies are now done by teams that include women as well. It’s reality that they are really changing the world. So when I was younger, it was … surprising for me when I learned that some very important, famous psychologist was a female because we learned only their surnames, and from their surnames, you are not sure if it’s male or female. And then when I realized it’s a female, it was like, wow. But nowadays, there are more and more female scientists, and I’m really proud of that when it comes to Serbia. So I cannot name one. I think there are so many in the field of psychology, but also other sciences.

Sophia Smith Galer (19:03)

Academic writing is really quite different to the kind of writing that I’ve had to become familiar with as a reporter. So, I’m very interested in hearing how you’ve come to learn and improve your academic writing, because it is, it is a real skill.

Nataša Simić (19:21)

Yes, it’s a real skill. And for me, it’s a really interesting process. I really love it, and it’s a very structured way. But at the same time, you’re not sure where you are going, so it is flexible, it is creative at the same time.

Sophia Smith Galer (19:40)

I saw someone sharing writing tips for academia, and she said it would take something like 12 weeks to write one paper. And I thought—I’m looking at Scaachi’s face here as well—I’m thinking of times I have been expected to write a lot. I interview a lot of people last minute and do it within three hours. So the opportunity to revel and relish 12 weeks for a piece of writing, I am so jealous. That sounds really nice. However, it’s really hard, isn’t it?

Nataša Simić (20:18)

Yeah, it’s really hard. And I have to be honest, at least in Serbia, it’s not like that. You don’t have such amount of time to work on that, but you work on different things. So, you should see my calendar in one day. I am switching from working on one project proposal to doing some activities within another project, then to writing some parts of my new paper, then revising some old paper, then reading something, then having meetings. So it’s not like you sit at home and you just write, write, write. Actually, it’s more dynamic work. I really have a lot of different tasks, which makes this job so wonderful and dynamic and creative, but when you sum up all these hours that you invest in writing a paper, it’s really a lot, and my experience is that you do it in phases, so it’s challenging, but I think that you learn a lot through this process.

Sophia Smith Galer (21:15)

For other countries, where there are far fewer women publishing and writing academic papers, what do you think they could learn from Serbia?

Nataša Simić (21:27)

I think that we stress more cooperation than competition. So we are not … competitive. We really try to cooperate and to build something together. So this solidarity is really important for women to succeed.

Sophia Smith Galer (21:44)

Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on “Where to Be a Woman.”

Nataša Simić (21:47)

Thank you for inviting me. Really a pleasure.

Scaachi Koul (21:56)

Sophia, I feel a little biased because I am a writer in one of these countries, so I feel like the answer is maybe easier for me. So why don’t you start?

Sophia Smith Galer (22:06)

I also think that’s because you and I have more experience of the writing that we spoke about in the U.S. interview than the Serbian example. Neither you nor I are academic writers. That is a completely different kettle of fish. You and I can only dream of doing what those very, very cool scientists and academics do, and I am really drawn to the idea of women not only dominating a writing field, but the specific writing field that leads to further scientific research funding. Yeah, that’s compelling.

Scaachi Koul (22:44)

That is compelling for a nerd, which you are, which I think is very nice.

Sophia Smith Galer (22:50)

Guilty.

Scaachi Koul (22:54)

But as somebody who wants to write about reality television and like read fiction and be mean to men who work in my newsroom, I feel like the US of A is where I need to be.

Sophia, so here’s the other thing. I’d also say, this is the first time we’ve had the U.S. in the show. And you know what? I moved to the U.S. for my career. I’m from Canada. I moved there because I felt like I was going to have more opportunities, and I would make more money, and I would be able to turn this into the kind of career that I wanted. And that has borne out. It’s been challenging in a lot of ways, and it’s obviously super racist, but beyond that, in a lot of ways, it has been easier. There has been more opportunity for me, and there has been more room.

Sophia Smith Galer (23:37)

Well, isn’t it interesting that women can dominate, for example, the publishing industry in the U.S., but then you have a look at academic publishing, and women suddenly do not dominate. So something is going on there, demonstrating that opportunities for women writers are not the same across all the different varying specialisms we may have when it comes to writing. So I definitely like the idea of there being gender parity in academic publishing. So I would also really like to take Serbia’s publishing record of women academics.

Scaachi Koul (24:15)

OK, Sophia, so let’s take Serbia’s female domination of academia—or parity, if we can’t have domination, but I think we can have domination—and the ample opportunities from American digital and print publishing. How’s that?

Sophia Smith Galer (24:33)

Yes, we want them both.